Dear Hussain
Please accept a standing ovation from all of us who have been discussing on this topic. Hats off to you. It proves there is no dearth of people who have the guts and the principles to stand up against corruption.
Another thing I would like to add after looking at comments from several other. I believe EVEN if you have indulged in bribing in the past you ALWAYS have a free will and a choice to NOT indulge in this activity from TODAY. If you have made a mistake in the past does not mean you have to continue making that mistake and that you are help less. I see all such justifications of having to pay bribes etc etc as lame excuses. Let's change things from NOW!..As simple as that!!
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
4Please accept a standing ovation from all of us who have been discussing on this topic. Hats off to you. It proves there is no dearth of people who have the guts and the principles to stand up against corruption.
Another thing I would like to add after looking at comments from several other. I believe EVEN if you have indulged in bribing in the past you ALWAYS have a free will and a choice to NOT indulge in this activity from TODAY. If you have made a mistake in the past does not mean you have to continue making that mistake and that you are help less. I see all such justifications of having to pay bribes etc etc as lame excuses. Let's change things from NOW!..As simple as that!!
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
Dear Bhaskar
Again we sense that you are defending the existing system!
Things don't change overnight!
It takes the majority to think alike to make the difference. This is a social evil which is deep rooted and it will take time & effort to make things change. If we were to follow you, then we should accept things as they are..because they have always been like this..and there is no power in us to change....I feel it is a negative & pessimistic approach. Many of our freedom fighters died without knowing that one day we would be free. Only thing they fought for what was right and They HOPED & had FAITH that together they will be able to defeat the empire.
Please have faith in UNITY & PEOPLE POWER. Be OPTIMISTIC. We will surely kill this Monster soon.
Good HR Associates.
From India, Chandigarh
Again we sense that you are defending the existing system!
Things don't change overnight!
It takes the majority to think alike to make the difference. This is a social evil which is deep rooted and it will take time & effort to make things change. If we were to follow you, then we should accept things as they are..because they have always been like this..and there is no power in us to change....I feel it is a negative & pessimistic approach. Many of our freedom fighters died without knowing that one day we would be free. Only thing they fought for what was right and They HOPED & had FAITH that together they will be able to defeat the empire.
Please have faith in UNITY & PEOPLE POWER. Be OPTIMISTIC. We will surely kill this Monster soon.
Good HR Associates.
From India, Chandigarh
Hi Good HR Associate,
Thank you for the appreciation, I would be more happy if we all can spread awareness of being sensitive towards any unethical practice. There are big fat scams, which can be taken care of by the CBI, CAG, or other investigative committees, but every citizen of India also has to pitch in by discouraging small corrupt practices in our daily lives, routines, interactions, upbringing, preachings, teachings, mentorings, trainigs, school levels, college levels, corporate levels, etc
We shall propogate a silent yet effective revolution against such corrupt practices, at some point of time we all have been corrupt for something. So lets not blame, punish or boycott people who indulge in this temptation, but lets cure this disease.
Motivate humane and ethical practices by advertising, preachings, training, teaching, mentoring. lets slow down in our fast rat race and take some minutes, hours or days off to clean our society.
Municipality boards should encourage 50% of ad space for social messages on every commercial advertising, banners, hoardings, billboards etc
Advertise corrupt acts of officials in public, bring them out in public glare
Question unethical practices, demand explanation, and demand it on paper.
Take effort to educate ourselves for processes to be followed for any tasks, lets not get lazy and pass off our responsibility.
let this initiatives take 50 years to show results, but nevertheless it will be worth it for future generations ! as you rightly mentioned, freedom fighters who sacrificed thier lives dint know if India would actually get independence, but they dreamt. they beleived in positive change, they acted when it was needed.
I completely understand Bhaskar and Pon point of view also, Helplessness that majority of Indians feel against corruption, but lets change the tables.
Thanks a lot for reading !
From Kuwait, Salmiya
Thank you for the appreciation, I would be more happy if we all can spread awareness of being sensitive towards any unethical practice. There are big fat scams, which can be taken care of by the CBI, CAG, or other investigative committees, but every citizen of India also has to pitch in by discouraging small corrupt practices in our daily lives, routines, interactions, upbringing, preachings, teachings, mentorings, trainigs, school levels, college levels, corporate levels, etc
We shall propogate a silent yet effective revolution against such corrupt practices, at some point of time we all have been corrupt for something. So lets not blame, punish or boycott people who indulge in this temptation, but lets cure this disease.
Motivate humane and ethical practices by advertising, preachings, training, teaching, mentoring. lets slow down in our fast rat race and take some minutes, hours or days off to clean our society.
Municipality boards should encourage 50% of ad space for social messages on every commercial advertising, banners, hoardings, billboards etc
Advertise corrupt acts of officials in public, bring them out in public glare
Question unethical practices, demand explanation, and demand it on paper.
Take effort to educate ourselves for processes to be followed for any tasks, lets not get lazy and pass off our responsibility.
let this initiatives take 50 years to show results, but nevertheless it will be worth it for future generations ! as you rightly mentioned, freedom fighters who sacrificed thier lives dint know if India would actually get independence, but they dreamt. they beleived in positive change, they acted when it was needed.
I completely understand Bhaskar and Pon point of view also, Helplessness that majority of Indians feel against corruption, but lets change the tables.
Thanks a lot for reading !
From Kuwait, Salmiya
Thanks again Hussain
I accept your point of view which comes across as wise & practical.
BTW, I am myself in midst of questioning & battling out a blatant unethical practice being followed by the HR Deptt of a Leading BPO while hiring thru vendors like us.
Good HR Associates.
From India, Chandigarh
I accept your point of view which comes across as wise & practical.
BTW, I am myself in midst of questioning & battling out a blatant unethical practice being followed by the HR Deptt of a Leading BPO while hiring thru vendors like us.
Good HR Associates.
From India, Chandigarh
Wow, great work Hussain, Boss and GHRA.
Two things that one needs to understand:
1. Corruption grows when the people at the top are inefficient. Thats why I said in my earlier posts that this needs to come down from the CEO. If you are down the food chain, the chances are that you are becoming a bait! It is like a rabbit asking a lion to be vegetarian... To fight a 'lion' you need to have a better strategy than just refraining from doing what he does.
Most people in this forum are not CEOs, hence, it is like preaching to the rabbits...
2. We have a very educated set of people in our country. If you question a person why he is standing in the middle of the road and blocking traffic, he is likely to get back to you saying that it is his right... (Baaju mein se jao na babu... :-))
So, when the overall focus is on the 'short-term' situation, expecting a solution on the long-term could quickly become unrealistic! People violate traffic rules. Talk to folks and they will give you hundreds of 'reasons'. The only thing we should realize is that the only reason is that people are not willing to follow rules. I met with two incidents where a car rammed into my vehicle. There was a traffic jam in front and the traffic was not moving. The cops said that you should not have stopped as you are doing risky driving!!! Ridiculous, isn't it? So, the expectation was that I should have taken my car and rammed into the vehicle in front??? And 100s of my friends counseled me about Indian driving and how it differed from Germany and the US (where I was earlier)!!!
At the end, it is a royal joke. But it talks a lot about our culture. A bribe is like a short cut (a traffic violation where one often sees cars going in the directions for the reverse lane)... And the cops often promote it!
Bottomline, draw the lines where you feel are ok. And try to support a system that would bring the wrong doers to the book... After all, we have abused education a little too long. If our earlier leaders have had huge money stashed in Swiss Accounts, well, it also means that there was always a lot of support... In other words, a clean-up should focus on the influence of the position as well.
From United States, Daphne
Two things that one needs to understand:
1. Corruption grows when the people at the top are inefficient. Thats why I said in my earlier posts that this needs to come down from the CEO. If you are down the food chain, the chances are that you are becoming a bait! It is like a rabbit asking a lion to be vegetarian... To fight a 'lion' you need to have a better strategy than just refraining from doing what he does.
Most people in this forum are not CEOs, hence, it is like preaching to the rabbits...
2. We have a very educated set of people in our country. If you question a person why he is standing in the middle of the road and blocking traffic, he is likely to get back to you saying that it is his right... (Baaju mein se jao na babu... :-))
So, when the overall focus is on the 'short-term' situation, expecting a solution on the long-term could quickly become unrealistic! People violate traffic rules. Talk to folks and they will give you hundreds of 'reasons'. The only thing we should realize is that the only reason is that people are not willing to follow rules. I met with two incidents where a car rammed into my vehicle. There was a traffic jam in front and the traffic was not moving. The cops said that you should not have stopped as you are doing risky driving!!! Ridiculous, isn't it? So, the expectation was that I should have taken my car and rammed into the vehicle in front??? And 100s of my friends counseled me about Indian driving and how it differed from Germany and the US (where I was earlier)!!!
At the end, it is a royal joke. But it talks a lot about our culture. A bribe is like a short cut (a traffic violation where one often sees cars going in the directions for the reverse lane)... And the cops often promote it!
Bottomline, draw the lines where you feel are ok. And try to support a system that would bring the wrong doers to the book... After all, we have abused education a little too long. If our earlier leaders have had huge money stashed in Swiss Accounts, well, it also means that there was always a lot of support... In other words, a clean-up should focus on the influence of the position as well.
From United States, Daphne
Hello Hussain, Bhaskar & GHRA,
A good discussion going here I guess.
I agree with Nikhil S. Gurjar when he says '........this needs to come down from the CEO...', but for totally DIFFERENT reasons.
Even though it's said in Sanskrit: "yatha raja, thatha praja", the current situation/scenario needs to be looked @ from a wider canvas. Instead of focusing on the 'titular Head', for a moment focus on the situation.
Taking the experience/situation which Hussain mentioned about bribing the Police for his Passport Police Clearance, would we blame the Director-General of Police for this situation--since the DGP is the CEO of that dept?
In the LIMITED CONTEXT & scenario, it's the Inspector of Police in THAT Station who is the CEO. Taking the traffic violation situation that many mentioned in this thread, again it's the respective/concerned Traffic Cop who becomes the CEO....so to say.....since HE CONTROLS in which direction THE SITUATION MOVES.
Applying the same logic to the original topic in this thread, within the given context, it's the HR guy who plays the role of the CEO--NOT THE ACTUAL CEO of that company. The same would apply, per se, to any situation we face anywhere.
Rather than focusing & blaming the ACTUAL & TITULAR CEO of the Company/Institution/Organization, it may be better if the focus is on the individual playing the CEO ROLE in the given situation--the one who controls the situation swinging either way.
When it's not possible to focus on or correct the Actual CEO ['Bada Raja', if I may call him/her], I am sure the 'chota raja' [the one who is playing out the CEO role in front of us] can be focused on. The difference between 2 situations--one directly controlled by the 'Chota Raja' & one by the 'Bada Raja'-- would be ONLY IN TERMS OF THE DAMAGE DONE. The scale of damage the Bada Raja can do to the system would be MUCH more than the former, because he/she wields far more power--by virtue of his/her position. Just relate this to the current spate of scams & you would understand it.
And as far as I can understand, I think this is what GHRA is doing when he mentions he is part of an effort to trap corrupt HR people--the 'Chota Rajas' in the game.
And I think everyone of us can do it too--irrespective of the situations one is into--at various levels & contexts. Hussain's ethical stand reg getting his Passport was one such thing. And, going by my own experiences, I know it's not easy....but then everything that one wants has a price to be paid--whether it's the ice-cream that one buys in the shop or the most tough ethical stand in career/life.
It's upto the individual to decide WHAT he/she wants.
Rgds,
TS
From India, Hyderabad
A good discussion going here I guess.
I agree with Nikhil S. Gurjar when he says '........this needs to come down from the CEO...', but for totally DIFFERENT reasons.
Even though it's said in Sanskrit: "yatha raja, thatha praja", the current situation/scenario needs to be looked @ from a wider canvas. Instead of focusing on the 'titular Head', for a moment focus on the situation.
Taking the experience/situation which Hussain mentioned about bribing the Police for his Passport Police Clearance, would we blame the Director-General of Police for this situation--since the DGP is the CEO of that dept?
In the LIMITED CONTEXT & scenario, it's the Inspector of Police in THAT Station who is the CEO. Taking the traffic violation situation that many mentioned in this thread, again it's the respective/concerned Traffic Cop who becomes the CEO....so to say.....since HE CONTROLS in which direction THE SITUATION MOVES.
Applying the same logic to the original topic in this thread, within the given context, it's the HR guy who plays the role of the CEO--NOT THE ACTUAL CEO of that company. The same would apply, per se, to any situation we face anywhere.
Rather than focusing & blaming the ACTUAL & TITULAR CEO of the Company/Institution/Organization, it may be better if the focus is on the individual playing the CEO ROLE in the given situation--the one who controls the situation swinging either way.
When it's not possible to focus on or correct the Actual CEO ['Bada Raja', if I may call him/her], I am sure the 'chota raja' [the one who is playing out the CEO role in front of us] can be focused on. The difference between 2 situations--one directly controlled by the 'Chota Raja' & one by the 'Bada Raja'-- would be ONLY IN TERMS OF THE DAMAGE DONE. The scale of damage the Bada Raja can do to the system would be MUCH more than the former, because he/she wields far more power--by virtue of his/her position. Just relate this to the current spate of scams & you would understand it.
And as far as I can understand, I think this is what GHRA is doing when he mentions he is part of an effort to trap corrupt HR people--the 'Chota Rajas' in the game.
And I think everyone of us can do it too--irrespective of the situations one is into--at various levels & contexts. Hussain's ethical stand reg getting his Passport was one such thing. And, going by my own experiences, I know it's not easy....but then everything that one wants has a price to be paid--whether it's the ice-cream that one buys in the shop or the most tough ethical stand in career/life.
It's upto the individual to decide WHAT he/she wants.
Rgds,
TS
From India, Hyderabad
TS,
I cannot confirm the following words, but I have heard them often... and from people I feel are reliable...
In the police department, some people believe that there is a cut system. Bribes in the departments are passed 'up' the ladder. So, it is indeed something to be handled at the top. A chhota raja who is required to pay-up, will not match his expense-to-income equation... He is left with a few options: (a) Complain and expose... that could go both ways... (b) Quit the job... which would render him jobless or (c) Accept the conditions and get imbibed into the system.
Even if one were to say that this is not true, (and I personally have no rational way to investigate and take sides), one needs to understand the relationship better. A situation involving a bribe is more like a predator-prey relationship rather than a boss-subordinate relationship. The fundamental difference between the two are clear (most of you are HR pros, so you know it better than I do). Hussain's example only confirms that. Think of it as a man-eater lion chasing you in a jungle... as against your relationship with your boss... The only way to control the situation is, therefore, to control the predator. And this is where the CEOs (the true ones... and not situational ones) come into picture. They are the ones who have adequate weapons to guide the 'predator' and 'control' the outcome of his/her actions.
The other way is to make the prey powerful enough. What Anna Hazare is trying to do is the latter... giving people a 'weapon' to fight back...
My daughter came to me the other day and said that some boys in her class were troubling her by pulling her hair. She used to come home crying. Her teacher coolly stated that this was a big class and it was not possible to control the class... They have a moral science subject where the first lesson / first page says we should not fight with each other!!! I sent a few notes to her teacher, but apparently it didn't stop. Finally, I told my daughter that she needed to fight back... And she did, and now things are ok!!! Moral of the story is that your principles are as good as your enforcement system. If you cannot enforce justice, people will try to enforce it themselves and protect their individual interests (which could be too diverse to be logically correct from the societal perspective)... And that is where the collapse of a society begins!
In a society made of civic people designed to respect individuals, if somebody tries to falsely play the 'predator' or the 'boss', one could quickly see a lot of games... And I am afraid, we are seeing that... The interesting thing in the Mahabharat is that of tolerance levels... 100 to 5 is the universal threshold for the 'baddies' to the 'goodies'... I guess we aren't there for the war yet, as I see too many good people even now! But we need to put the thread in perspective...
And ofcourse TS, you would blame the DGP. Its his duty to bring these people to the book... If someone complains to you about someone in your organization, I am sure you would fight for what is right... Ultimately, the CEO is responsible for EVERYTHING! Its like a family. As the head of the family, you are responsible for everything... or would you rather pass the buck???
From United States, Daphne
I cannot confirm the following words, but I have heard them often... and from people I feel are reliable...
In the police department, some people believe that there is a cut system. Bribes in the departments are passed 'up' the ladder. So, it is indeed something to be handled at the top. A chhota raja who is required to pay-up, will not match his expense-to-income equation... He is left with a few options: (a) Complain and expose... that could go both ways... (b) Quit the job... which would render him jobless or (c) Accept the conditions and get imbibed into the system.
Even if one were to say that this is not true, (and I personally have no rational way to investigate and take sides), one needs to understand the relationship better. A situation involving a bribe is more like a predator-prey relationship rather than a boss-subordinate relationship. The fundamental difference between the two are clear (most of you are HR pros, so you know it better than I do). Hussain's example only confirms that. Think of it as a man-eater lion chasing you in a jungle... as against your relationship with your boss... The only way to control the situation is, therefore, to control the predator. And this is where the CEOs (the true ones... and not situational ones) come into picture. They are the ones who have adequate weapons to guide the 'predator' and 'control' the outcome of his/her actions.
The other way is to make the prey powerful enough. What Anna Hazare is trying to do is the latter... giving people a 'weapon' to fight back...
My daughter came to me the other day and said that some boys in her class were troubling her by pulling her hair. She used to come home crying. Her teacher coolly stated that this was a big class and it was not possible to control the class... They have a moral science subject where the first lesson / first page says we should not fight with each other!!! I sent a few notes to her teacher, but apparently it didn't stop. Finally, I told my daughter that she needed to fight back... And she did, and now things are ok!!! Moral of the story is that your principles are as good as your enforcement system. If you cannot enforce justice, people will try to enforce it themselves and protect their individual interests (which could be too diverse to be logically correct from the societal perspective)... And that is where the collapse of a society begins!
In a society made of civic people designed to respect individuals, if somebody tries to falsely play the 'predator' or the 'boss', one could quickly see a lot of games... And I am afraid, we are seeing that... The interesting thing in the Mahabharat is that of tolerance levels... 100 to 5 is the universal threshold for the 'baddies' to the 'goodies'... I guess we aren't there for the war yet, as I see too many good people even now! But we need to put the thread in perspective...
And ofcourse TS, you would blame the DGP. Its his duty to bring these people to the book... If someone complains to you about someone in your organization, I am sure you would fight for what is right... Ultimately, the CEO is responsible for EVERYTHING! Its like a family. As the head of the family, you are responsible for everything... or would you rather pass the buck???
From United States, Daphne
Dear TS
You are right. Even if the CEO / Head of Organization is clean & honest, what stops the lower rung from indulgin in corruption Case in point is Dr Manmohan Singh, an honest person heading a corrupt Govt.
Good.HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
You are right. Even if the CEO / Head of Organization is clean & honest, what stops the lower rung from indulgin in corruption Case in point is Dr Manmohan Singh, an honest person heading a corrupt Govt.
Good.HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
Dear Nikhil
I agree : "your principles are as good as your enforcement system" Effective Implementation of the plans / strategies / principles / Programs / Law is necessary. Govt comes out with numerous plans for the poor but are never enforced / implemented and hence the benefit never reaches the poor.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
I agree : "your principles are as good as your enforcement system" Effective Implementation of the plans / strategies / principles / Programs / Law is necessary. Govt comes out with numerous plans for the poor but are never enforced / implemented and hence the benefit never reaches the poor.
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
I completely agree with Good Hr Associates,
in matter of corruption , HR comes into a clear picture, as HR is now treated as a Source of Job.
I wonder the moment i started working as an Hr, My incoming calls have risen more than the inflation,
those acquaintances who never bothered to lend a hand wen I was in need, now are ready to pay any amount, if i pass their candidate thru our co. recruitment process.
Moreover, its a seeped trait of us, to accept such offers,
n kinda test for us to stick to our ethics and principles in the toughest of times.
From India, Pune
in matter of corruption , HR comes into a clear picture, as HR is now treated as a Source of Job.
I wonder the moment i started working as an Hr, My incoming calls have risen more than the inflation,
those acquaintances who never bothered to lend a hand wen I was in need, now are ready to pay any amount, if i pass their candidate thru our co. recruitment process.
Moreover, its a seeped trait of us, to accept such offers,
n kinda test for us to stick to our ethics and principles in the toughest of times.
From India, Pune
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