hi everybdy out dere,
well going thru everyone's views, i liked wht rajnish said. recruitments is an hr functions dat involves sales activities in the initial stages. and for this consultancies are d best example for dis as recruitment execs have to achieve d targets n work accordingly.
dips
From India, Delhi
10well going thru everyone's views, i liked wht rajnish said. recruitments is an hr functions dat involves sales activities in the initial stages. and for this consultancies are d best example for dis as recruitment execs have to achieve d targets n work accordingly.
dips
From India, Delhi
hi to all Lets don’t shoot global faux’ pros
Make an in-depth analysis stepwise
Stage1: The vacancy
Here nothing of sales grid & its core activity being used…it’s a hardcore HR activity where we as HR professionals try to evaluate plan for that open position business wise/grade wise (split indent analysis) and create competency matrix to seek profile match. ----- No sales activity.
Stage 2: Recruitment and selection planning meeting
Here we schedule things like - Who takes part and roles / responsibilities, Use of external assessors, Use of selection tests. Again a pure operation & approach to scale of development for behavioral templates ----- No sales activity.
Stage 3: Advertising the post
Here a bit of sales is being used, making HR a strategic business unit to facilitate different functions. Things like
- Information pack for applicants
- Application forms
- Visiting the organization/campus ….is being followed
- Sourcing (here more of marketing functions are adhered rather than sales)…like activating special consultants…. fetching different career portals and lots more.
Stage 4: Shortlisting the candidates
I don’t think profile sampling and rejection feedback for special cluster requirement is sales activity…isn’t it?
Stage 5: The interview/assessment stage
-Invitation to interview
-Pre-interview preparation
-the interview process
-Trained interviewers
-Composition of the panel
-Declaring an interest
-Venue
-Asking questions
-Taking notes at interview
I really again, don’t think you can push in sales on any of the above fittins…..and interview as per me is only deliverable for candidates not for you as an recruiting organization.
Stage 6: The selection decision
-References
-Types of reference required
Stage 7: The appointment
-Orientation
-Responding to requests for feedback
-Who should give the information
-What information should be given
See think from HR perspective, however links can be made between a cat and tiger …but cat is cat n tiger remains tiger …what say HR fieroz? …. please don’t dilute HR…as it already being perceived as cost centric function….lets make it more versatile
animesh
Make an in-depth analysis stepwise
Stage1: The vacancy
Here nothing of sales grid & its core activity being used…it’s a hardcore HR activity where we as HR professionals try to evaluate plan for that open position business wise/grade wise (split indent analysis) and create competency matrix to seek profile match. ----- No sales activity.
Stage 2: Recruitment and selection planning meeting
Here we schedule things like - Who takes part and roles / responsibilities, Use of external assessors, Use of selection tests. Again a pure operation & approach to scale of development for behavioral templates ----- No sales activity.
Stage 3: Advertising the post
Here a bit of sales is being used, making HR a strategic business unit to facilitate different functions. Things like
- Information pack for applicants
- Application forms
- Visiting the organization/campus ….is being followed
- Sourcing (here more of marketing functions are adhered rather than sales)…like activating special consultants…. fetching different career portals and lots more.
Stage 4: Shortlisting the candidates
I don’t think profile sampling and rejection feedback for special cluster requirement is sales activity…isn’t it?
Stage 5: The interview/assessment stage
-Invitation to interview
-Pre-interview preparation
-the interview process
-Trained interviewers
-Composition of the panel
-Declaring an interest
-Venue
-Asking questions
-Taking notes at interview
I really again, don’t think you can push in sales on any of the above fittins…..and interview as per me is only deliverable for candidates not for you as an recruiting organization.
Stage 6: The selection decision
-References
-Types of reference required
Stage 7: The appointment
-Orientation
-Responding to requests for feedback
-Who should give the information
-What information should be given
See think from HR perspective, however links can be made between a cat and tiger …but cat is cat n tiger remains tiger …what say HR fieroz? …. please don’t dilute HR…as it already being perceived as cost centric function….lets make it more versatile
animesh
Hi Animesh
I would ask a very basic question... Why we are basics of Marketing, Operations, HR, Finance, OB, IT etc in MBA when actually we are going to take only one of them....
The reason is that all are inter-connected.. If you try to look at HR from only one point of view... [Pick up a quote from Quote's Dictionary... I don't want to put it by myself]
An HR Guy should know and practice all the basics of different specialities
1. Marketing / Sales : Lots have been discussed and the debate can still go on [Toffee / Coffee = Coffee Bite]
2. Finance : Can you undermine the fact that the cost to the company and ROI are important aspects of HR
3. Operations: It is an integral part of any organization, so no need to discuss any further...
The point here I am trying to make is that.... there is nothing called HR / Sales / Operations / Finance work..
It is just your work profile... and you need to manage your own mix of various skills to do your work efficiently... In which branch these skills have been taught is not of much importance...
As for making it more versatile... The Professional himself has to be a versatile person and should have a broader perspective of the entire business and not just the HR perspective
From India, Ahmadabad
I would ask a very basic question... Why we are basics of Marketing, Operations, HR, Finance, OB, IT etc in MBA when actually we are going to take only one of them....
The reason is that all are inter-connected.. If you try to look at HR from only one point of view... [Pick up a quote from Quote's Dictionary... I don't want to put it by myself]
An HR Guy should know and practice all the basics of different specialities
1. Marketing / Sales : Lots have been discussed and the debate can still go on [Toffee / Coffee = Coffee Bite]
2. Finance : Can you undermine the fact that the cost to the company and ROI are important aspects of HR
3. Operations: It is an integral part of any organization, so no need to discuss any further...
The point here I am trying to make is that.... there is nothing called HR / Sales / Operations / Finance work..
It is just your work profile... and you need to manage your own mix of various skills to do your work efficiently... In which branch these skills have been taught is not of much importance...
As for making it more versatile... The Professional himself has to be a versatile person and should have a broader perspective of the entire business and not just the HR perspective
From India, Ahmadabad
agreed, i too beileve two years of campus exp is not letting me source nuf of it. General management courses are just to enhance your expertise in varied field so, you being either of fin, mark, Ops or say HR dont be novice to other functional certifications. but it dosent gives you core competency in all these fields. it just gives you a holistic view and makes you a strategic business allocator....say if you require any support from line function. why if you interview for sales, being an HR you have you make pannel status inviting sales line managers? ... just coz' you can only appraise him from HR mode resta will be screened by concerned business head not you.
and apart from General management subjects ....your specializations seeks you so much...you being an MBA wud have experienced it.
you'r correct that your work profile should be a mix of all .... but HR rules its own procedural aspect.... can a guy from marketing or sales track compensation management.....employee relationship (Laws n legal aspect say discharge n dissimisal)
can you being an HR personnel everthink of having expertise in making product mapping charts n cost allocations ....jus mark my words ...can you do without having say 1 or 2 yers of exp
so HR for sure agreed should be startegic et' d same time i"ll its a different core of busienss action.
many B-school have general management scheme ...say in final year you opt for specialization...here you dilute yous cognizance but say if ur from XL/TISS?Symbi.....you"ll find they have segmented course for 2 years ...n it"ll fetch you more focussed inclination n enhanced knowledge for HR
what say?
PS: Thanks dips
but do give your inputs
and apart from General management subjects ....your specializations seeks you so much...you being an MBA wud have experienced it.
you'r correct that your work profile should be a mix of all .... but HR rules its own procedural aspect.... can a guy from marketing or sales track compensation management.....employee relationship (Laws n legal aspect say discharge n dissimisal)
can you being an HR personnel everthink of having expertise in making product mapping charts n cost allocations ....jus mark my words ...can you do without having say 1 or 2 yers of exp
so HR for sure agreed should be startegic et' d same time i"ll its a different core of busienss action.
many B-school have general management scheme ...say in final year you opt for specialization...here you dilute yous cognizance but say if ur from XL/TISS?Symbi.....you"ll find they have segmented course for 2 years ...n it"ll fetch you more focussed inclination n enhanced knowledge for HR
what say?
PS: Thanks dips
but do give your inputs
"Koi Bhi Ho Sales ya HR Rahenge to Management Ke bachhe Hi" :)
English : "Be it Sales or HR it always remain childs of Management"
Hi to all, I think!, I don't think too much, but you people are forcing me to think more.
RECRUITMENT SALES???
--------------------------------
NO : if it is done without the help of any third party like consultant, recruitment companies and (job sites , may be).
If HR department of a company is doing "ALL RECRUITMENT" then it is NOT SALES and it is thus "THE FUNCTION OF HR DEPARTMENT"
--------------------------------
YES : If Recruitment is done with the help of Consultant, Third party etc, then Organisation which is taking "SERVICES" of these people (consultants, third party) and these people are taking MONEY for their SERVICES.
"SELLING OF SERVICES" Applies here :) Got my point!
ONE THING MORE
"RECRUITMENT AND SELECTION ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT FUNCTIONS", THEY ARE CLOSELY RELATED BUT NOT SIMILAR"
Your consultant can have a role in the recruitment process, but Can this consultant select your candidate, NO! - It is only the people in your organisation who can select candidate for a job.
"SELECTION CANNOT BE DONE FROM OUTSIDE, BUT RECRUITMENT CAN"
"SELECTION CANNOT BE OUTSOURCED, BUT RECRUITMENT CAN"
Thanks,
Manu Sharma
From India, New Delhi
English : "Be it Sales or HR it always remain childs of Management"
Hi to all, I think!, I don't think too much, but you people are forcing me to think more.
RECRUITMENT SALES???
--------------------------------
NO : if it is done without the help of any third party like consultant, recruitment companies and (job sites , may be).
If HR department of a company is doing "ALL RECRUITMENT" then it is NOT SALES and it is thus "THE FUNCTION OF HR DEPARTMENT"
--------------------------------
YES : If Recruitment is done with the help of Consultant, Third party etc, then Organisation which is taking "SERVICES" of these people (consultants, third party) and these people are taking MONEY for their SERVICES.
"SELLING OF SERVICES" Applies here :) Got my point!
ONE THING MORE
"RECRUITMENT AND SELECTION ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT FUNCTIONS", THEY ARE CLOSELY RELATED BUT NOT SIMILAR"
Your consultant can have a role in the recruitment process, but Can this consultant select your candidate, NO! - It is only the people in your organisation who can select candidate for a job.
"SELECTION CANNOT BE DONE FROM OUTSIDE, BUT RECRUITMENT CAN"
"SELECTION CANNOT BE OUTSOURCED, BUT RECRUITMENT CAN"
Thanks,
Manu Sharma
From India, New Delhi
Dear amjal....
i 2 undstd your earlier conctents
hope this article suffice our mergers
plz go thru it ...its for you ....n i dont have ny deviations from you
Junta spare some time to go thru the article ....
Business is fundamentally simple. It's we who make it complicated. When you are able to cut to the core, say, peel away the layers to get to the essence, business is quite straightforward. It is essentially about how you create value for the customer and how you are able to capture that value, as much of it, at as low a cost as possible. What happens over a period of time is that we put several layers around the core essence of business, whether it is at the workplace or a B-school. As a result, we tend to get into a complexity that is our own creation. If you look at some of the great business leaders, they have stuck to or built the core proposition.They know what value proposition they want to give the customer and single-handedly drive their business towards it in an extremely focussed manner. If you are able to do that, I think half
your problem is solved. So cut out all the power points-if you have something to say, be precise, clear and simple. Take the example of telegrams for which we pay by the word. Every extra word has a cost to it. Similarly, I strongly believe that there is a cost you pay for
complexity. At B-schools or the workplace, people somehow feel that if you are able to complicate things, you are able to create more reason for your existence.There is a tendency to get seduced by the methodologies and tools and lay on a lot of theories and jargon that
complicates matters. You should not fall in love with the tools just because you are using them. Ask yourself: how are these tools going to enable me? Will they assist me in creating and capturing value proposition? If they don't, throw them out. Having said that however, B-schools do have lessons to teach. The most important thing that a good B-school helps
you with is that it brings you in close contact with the best talent in the country. This enhances your mental faculties and stimulates your thinking. If you look at a business, it is fundamentally about theoretical experiences, sitting back and reflecting on those experiences and learning from them. What you need to do, however, is focus on what value you derive from what you are taught. Often, a lot of students-or even young professionals, for that matter-get a high level of comfort in living with the latest buzzwords and jargon.That often holds you back from the truth. So often in the first 10 years of your career you keep filling ditches. But it's only after you empty those ditches, that is, unlearn a lot of things you have been taught, that you manage to get to the core proposition. So what is it that we need to succeed in business? First comes hunger; that is, how hungry you are to get to your goal. Even if you are not
outstandingly brilliant, but have the hunger to succeed, it makes a lot of difference. As Martina Navratilova put it-and you don't always have to learn from the Tom Peters and Peter
Druckers-"People who talk about there being no winners or losers are losers themselves."
Whenever I recruit people, I try to find out how hungry they are-for the job, achieving certain objectives or changing the world. If that drive is there, half the battle is already won. Training, investing in the person and giving him a clear direction come later. We often talk about the four Ps in business, that is,product, price, place and promotion. It is a standard theme in B-school education-you learn it everyday. I have realised that there are two more Ps. The fifth P is "people". According to David Ogilvy, "If you hire people who are better than you, then over a period of time, you will be in the company of giants." On the other hand, if you hire someone smaller than you, and if he hires someone smaller than him, and so on, you'll soon be running a company of pygmies! So to build a sound business, you need to get the best people, both in terms of quality and their hunger to succeed.The sixth P is "pace". This is particularly relevant when we look at the technology business where products get obsolete every three months. A new technology comes out almost every other year and it changes the playing field. In this industry, the people who succeed are those who unlearn the past quickly and move on to adapt to what the future offers.It may take two years to get to the point where you think
you are absolutely right-by when you realise that the market has passed you by. So, it is essential that you change all the time, and the faster you change the better it is. That means that you probably need to make some trade-offs in terms of educated guesses and risks. But then business is all about taking risks. You calibrate the risk to the pay-off. While B-schools talk a lot about risk management, at the end of the day it's the decision (risk) that you take in the real world that counts. These decisions have consequences-for you, your employees, your
company and so on. But if you don't take those decisions, it can often be a bigger risk. For instance, Intel was initially into memory chips, but then it realised that its business was taking a beating since the technology was fast becoming obsolete. It took a risk and entered the microprocessor business. The risk paid off. When you are working in large organisations, one of the biggest skills that stands you in good stead is not only knowing how to sell ideas but also sell yourself in the right way. All B-schools teach you how to sell products-everything from
chewing gum to cars. But no B-school really tells you how to sell yourself. But if you want to be taken seriously, you need to sell yourself to the organisation, to your customers
and to the people who work for you. In a few months of joining an organisation you are branded, which probably stays with you as you climb up the ladder.You must be clear about what kind of brand you want to be.Ravi Swaminathan is vice president, HP , Personal Systems
Group. He is an alumni of the Indian Institute of Management, Ahmedabad,
from where he graduated in 1977
animesh
i 2 undstd your earlier conctents
hope this article suffice our mergers
plz go thru it ...its for you ....n i dont have ny deviations from you
Junta spare some time to go thru the article ....
Business is fundamentally simple. It's we who make it complicated. When you are able to cut to the core, say, peel away the layers to get to the essence, business is quite straightforward. It is essentially about how you create value for the customer and how you are able to capture that value, as much of it, at as low a cost as possible. What happens over a period of time is that we put several layers around the core essence of business, whether it is at the workplace or a B-school. As a result, we tend to get into a complexity that is our own creation. If you look at some of the great business leaders, they have stuck to or built the core proposition.They know what value proposition they want to give the customer and single-handedly drive their business towards it in an extremely focussed manner. If you are able to do that, I think half
your problem is solved. So cut out all the power points-if you have something to say, be precise, clear and simple. Take the example of telegrams for which we pay by the word. Every extra word has a cost to it. Similarly, I strongly believe that there is a cost you pay for
complexity. At B-schools or the workplace, people somehow feel that if you are able to complicate things, you are able to create more reason for your existence.There is a tendency to get seduced by the methodologies and tools and lay on a lot of theories and jargon that
complicates matters. You should not fall in love with the tools just because you are using them. Ask yourself: how are these tools going to enable me? Will they assist me in creating and capturing value proposition? If they don't, throw them out. Having said that however, B-schools do have lessons to teach. The most important thing that a good B-school helps
you with is that it brings you in close contact with the best talent in the country. This enhances your mental faculties and stimulates your thinking. If you look at a business, it is fundamentally about theoretical experiences, sitting back and reflecting on those experiences and learning from them. What you need to do, however, is focus on what value you derive from what you are taught. Often, a lot of students-or even young professionals, for that matter-get a high level of comfort in living with the latest buzzwords and jargon.That often holds you back from the truth. So often in the first 10 years of your career you keep filling ditches. But it's only after you empty those ditches, that is, unlearn a lot of things you have been taught, that you manage to get to the core proposition. So what is it that we need to succeed in business? First comes hunger; that is, how hungry you are to get to your goal. Even if you are not
outstandingly brilliant, but have the hunger to succeed, it makes a lot of difference. As Martina Navratilova put it-and you don't always have to learn from the Tom Peters and Peter
Druckers-"People who talk about there being no winners or losers are losers themselves."
Whenever I recruit people, I try to find out how hungry they are-for the job, achieving certain objectives or changing the world. If that drive is there, half the battle is already won. Training, investing in the person and giving him a clear direction come later. We often talk about the four Ps in business, that is,product, price, place and promotion. It is a standard theme in B-school education-you learn it everyday. I have realised that there are two more Ps. The fifth P is "people". According to David Ogilvy, "If you hire people who are better than you, then over a period of time, you will be in the company of giants." On the other hand, if you hire someone smaller than you, and if he hires someone smaller than him, and so on, you'll soon be running a company of pygmies! So to build a sound business, you need to get the best people, both in terms of quality and their hunger to succeed.The sixth P is "pace". This is particularly relevant when we look at the technology business where products get obsolete every three months. A new technology comes out almost every other year and it changes the playing field. In this industry, the people who succeed are those who unlearn the past quickly and move on to adapt to what the future offers.It may take two years to get to the point where you think
you are absolutely right-by when you realise that the market has passed you by. So, it is essential that you change all the time, and the faster you change the better it is. That means that you probably need to make some trade-offs in terms of educated guesses and risks. But then business is all about taking risks. You calibrate the risk to the pay-off. While B-schools talk a lot about risk management, at the end of the day it's the decision (risk) that you take in the real world that counts. These decisions have consequences-for you, your employees, your
company and so on. But if you don't take those decisions, it can often be a bigger risk. For instance, Intel was initially into memory chips, but then it realised that its business was taking a beating since the technology was fast becoming obsolete. It took a risk and entered the microprocessor business. The risk paid off. When you are working in large organisations, one of the biggest skills that stands you in good stead is not only knowing how to sell ideas but also sell yourself in the right way. All B-schools teach you how to sell products-everything from
chewing gum to cars. But no B-school really tells you how to sell yourself. But if you want to be taken seriously, you need to sell yourself to the organisation, to your customers
and to the people who work for you. In a few months of joining an organisation you are branded, which probably stays with you as you climb up the ladder.You must be clear about what kind of brand you want to be.Ravi Swaminathan is vice president, HP , Personal Systems
Group. He is an alumni of the Indian Institute of Management, Ahmedabad,
from where he graduated in 1977
animesh
Hi Animesh
After a hot discussion let me cool down....
I think of starting a new thread on "What's there is the Name"
Ajmal by Amjal or Azmal or Aziz would still remain Ajmal... Right...
And as for the article.... yes it is very much what i was trying to potray, and i think that we are now quite in harmony of the thoughts on this subject
From India, Ahmadabad
After a hot discussion let me cool down....
I think of starting a new thread on "What's there is the Name"
Ajmal by Amjal or Azmal or Aziz would still remain Ajmal... Right...
And as for the article.... yes it is very much what i was trying to potray, and i think that we are now quite in harmony of the thoughts on this subject
From India, Ahmadabad
HR professionals are soo adept that they can also upgrade celeron to P-4 isnt it dude ??/ joking :lol: animesh
Ya animesh, I agree that HR people are quite adept... But please be careful at typing my name.... I don’t like it to be misspelled. I am quite attached my name
From India, Ahmadabad
From India, Ahmadabad
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