It is most urgent , please help me some body.
we are running chemical industry for the past 25 years in Srikakulam , at the time of erection we have taken one employee in the year 1988 as a gardener without any DOB (Date of Birth) certificate. He has given his DOB in PF form 2A as 10.06.1953. The DOB which was given by him seems to be wrong, now i want authorized DOB from him. How can we get from him ? Is there any process? if so please suggest me.
For some more clarification please find below points
1. He is UN-educated.
2. He has no children.
3.He is not native of Srikakulam(Where plant located)
4.I dont feel Ration Card, Adhar Card is an appropriate for the proof of authorized DOB .
From India, Visakhapatnam
3we are running chemical industry for the past 25 years in Srikakulam , at the time of erection we have taken one employee in the year 1988 as a gardener without any DOB (Date of Birth) certificate. He has given his DOB in PF form 2A as 10.06.1953. The DOB which was given by him seems to be wrong, now i want authorized DOB from him. How can we get from him ? Is there any process? if so please suggest me.
For some more clarification please find below points
1. He is UN-educated.
2. He has no children.
3.He is not native of Srikakulam(Where plant located)
4.I dont feel Ration Card, Adhar Card is an appropriate for the proof of authorized DOB .
From India, Visakhapatnam
Dear Friend, if he is an illeterate then you can ask him to get a certificate from a Govt medical officer. Regards - kamesh
From India, Hyderabad
From India, Hyderabad
Dear bv.smartchem,
There are two issues in this case. One the employee is an uneducated gardner. He will not know his date of birth and if someone even if told him he will not remember it. Second if he says he is born on 10.06.1953 despite being an uneducated man please accept it.
Ration card and Adhar Cards can't be issued like that and specifically Adhar Card. You have all the freedom to either accept it or reject it. Even if he goes to a Govt. medical officer he will certify from what this employee narrates him and there is no other way.
The other alternative is that he can go to his hometown where he was either born or brought up and get a birth certificate certified by the Village Sarpanch who has the authority to issue a noting which can be produced in Birth & Death Records Office who will then issue a birth certificate which you have no other option but to accept it.
Lastly I would like to ask you a simple question. He is a single man, he is not from the workplace, he has no children and he is uneducated then why are you so desperate to prove his date of birth. There has to be some issues. Unless you put these issues we can't really gide you properly.
With warm wishes.
From India, Pune
There are two issues in this case. One the employee is an uneducated gardner. He will not know his date of birth and if someone even if told him he will not remember it. Second if he says he is born on 10.06.1953 despite being an uneducated man please accept it.
Ration card and Adhar Cards can't be issued like that and specifically Adhar Card. You have all the freedom to either accept it or reject it. Even if he goes to a Govt. medical officer he will certify from what this employee narrates him and there is no other way.
The other alternative is that he can go to his hometown where he was either born or brought up and get a birth certificate certified by the Village Sarpanch who has the authority to issue a noting which can be produced in Birth & Death Records Office who will then issue a birth certificate which you have no other option but to accept it.
Lastly I would like to ask you a simple question. He is a single man, he is not from the workplace, he has no children and he is uneducated then why are you so desperate to prove his date of birth. There has to be some issues. Unless you put these issues we can't really gide you properly.
With warm wishes.
From India, Pune
Dear Bv.Smartchem,
I totally agree with vpk55pune. In addition, I would like to know that whether the date of birth declared by the employee concerned was at the time of his appointment or at a later stage i.e. recently when he was asked to do so. If former is the case, there is no need to dig in without any purpose, which is not clear from the query. If later is the case, and since workman is uneducated, you may request competent Authority to set up a Medical Board consisting of Eye Specialist, Bone Specialist, A physician, a representative of Distt. Sadar Hospital I/c and a Personnel/HR Manager who will examine the employee clinically and apparently. On their findings, I am sure, they will be able to assess the age of employee concerned nearing accuracy.
But is is my humble suggestion that do not go for it unless it is in the interest of the employee concerned or the Company's large interest. Just doing so to harass somebody just because somebody doesn't think that the employee has revealed his correct age, is not ethical.
Best wishes. May good sense prevail on all of us.
AK Jain
HR Personnel
NCL/CIL
From India, Jabalpur
I totally agree with vpk55pune. In addition, I would like to know that whether the date of birth declared by the employee concerned was at the time of his appointment or at a later stage i.e. recently when he was asked to do so. If former is the case, there is no need to dig in without any purpose, which is not clear from the query. If later is the case, and since workman is uneducated, you may request competent Authority to set up a Medical Board consisting of Eye Specialist, Bone Specialist, A physician, a representative of Distt. Sadar Hospital I/c and a Personnel/HR Manager who will examine the employee clinically and apparently. On their findings, I am sure, they will be able to assess the age of employee concerned nearing accuracy.
But is is my humble suggestion that do not go for it unless it is in the interest of the employee concerned or the Company's large interest. Just doing so to harass somebody just because somebody doesn't think that the employee has revealed his correct age, is not ethical.
Best wishes. May good sense prevail on all of us.
AK Jain
HR Personnel
NCL/CIL
From India, Jabalpur
In 1950's registration of birth was not mandatory and people very rarely did this. Even during admission, the school believed in what DOB parents gave orally.
After 60 years, you cannot expect somebody to produce authorized DOB. His elders, if alive must be above 80 years and less likely to remember the exact Date of Birth.
Better option would be to accept what he has given. Let it be for any purpose.
Ration card doesn't have DOB. But, Aadhaar yes. There is no harm in accepting Aadhaar as proof of DOB.
Even if by some means, you prove that the person has given wrong DOB, you cannot take legal action against him after 25 years in service. He is 60 years and court will just say, you are harassing to stop is retirement benefits
From India, Madras
After 60 years, you cannot expect somebody to produce authorized DOB. His elders, if alive must be above 80 years and less likely to remember the exact Date of Birth.
Better option would be to accept what he has given. Let it be for any purpose.
Ration card doesn't have DOB. But, Aadhaar yes. There is no harm in accepting Aadhaar as proof of DOB.
Even if by some means, you prove that the person has given wrong DOB, you cannot take legal action against him after 25 years in service. He is 60 years and court will just say, you are harassing to stop is retirement benefits
From India, Madras
Very Well said Dear Member - HR4NATION.
Now I realize that being DOB as 10.06.1953, the employee must have retired on superannuation in June, 2013. And now the Company is playing tricks to harass the ex-employee and finding ways to forfeit his terminal dues. Very Bad and Un-ethical.
I would request the member Bv.Smartchem not to be a party to such a mal-practice, rather help the employee by persuading the higher management in employee's favour.
Best wishes.
AK Jain
HR Personnel
NCL, CIL.
From India, Jabalpur
Now I realize that being DOB as 10.06.1953, the employee must have retired on superannuation in June, 2013. And now the Company is playing tricks to harass the ex-employee and finding ways to forfeit his terminal dues. Very Bad and Un-ethical.
I would request the member Bv.Smartchem not to be a party to such a mal-practice, rather help the employee by persuading the higher management in employee's favour.
Best wishes.
AK Jain
HR Personnel
NCL, CIL.
From India, Jabalpur
If you hold up his benefits, or create any problems and If the employee goes to court, 90% chances are he will win the case and may even get a substantial award against your company.
Further, please look up the law on estoppel.
I am not frightening you but just outlining a definite legal possibility.
And why is the company wasting time in looking up DOB of an employee who might have retired as pointed by HR4nation?
And lastly, as Shri. Jain ji has said, "Best wishes. May good sense prevail on all of us."
Cheers,
Sarma
From India, Bangalore
Further, please look up the law on estoppel.
I am not frightening you but just outlining a definite legal possibility.
And why is the company wasting time in looking up DOB of an employee who might have retired as pointed by HR4nation?
And lastly, as Shri. Jain ji has said, "Best wishes. May good sense prevail on all of us."
Cheers,
Sarma
From India, Bangalore
Dear friends,
It so happened both of our date & month are the same, only the years differs. However keeping aside the purpose for which the query has been raised, In the matter of dispute of the real DOB of an employee where no authentic proof/record is available the only option is to refer him to the Govt.District Surgeon to examine and certify his probable DOB which can be safely acted upon. I'm not aware what is the retiring age in your estt. And also not clear why you disputed the DOB as mentioned in his PF Form 2A which has been in vogue as official DOB all these years. What prompted this dispute, do you wish to extend his service lowering his year of birth or some such thing ? Or he raised any dispute over this ?
From India, Bangalore
It so happened both of our date & month are the same, only the years differs. However keeping aside the purpose for which the query has been raised, In the matter of dispute of the real DOB of an employee where no authentic proof/record is available the only option is to refer him to the Govt.District Surgeon to examine and certify his probable DOB which can be safely acted upon. I'm not aware what is the retiring age in your estt. And also not clear why you disputed the DOB as mentioned in his PF Form 2A which has been in vogue as official DOB all these years. What prompted this dispute, do you wish to extend his service lowering his year of birth or some such thing ? Or he raised any dispute over this ?
From India, Bangalore
Dear All,
After reading all the comments given by all of you, I dont understand why all are pointing me? I have just asked is there any process of getting authorized DOB from the employee who was not submitted at the time of joining or in the service period. I dont feel that I am harassing employee or playing tricks on him. As a mandatory we the HR people has to collect required documents at the time of joining or in the service period. I have joined in this establishment recently and checked all the personal files of the employees, in that i have found this case. Inorder to stream line the gaps which i have found while checking. I have asked you all for suggestion and I feel that necessary documents are to be incorporated in personal file. Now i am asking missing file.
In our organization the retirement age is 60 years . As per his DOB his present age is 50 years , still the company has to bear him for another 10 years without proper documents. Somebody has done mistake without collecting proper documents , shall I has to continue the same wrong? so I am asking the authorized document.
I have done the following thing , whether I have done wrong or right kindly suggest me
1. I have issued him formal letter requesting him to submit DOB certificate within 3 days.
2. If he dont submit the letter , I will write letter to Medical Board requesting to examine one of the employee and confirm the DOB through medical test by keeping copy to concern employee.
I am not criticizing your comments , thankyou for all of you for sharing your views.
Regards
Venkat Ramana.B
From India, Visakhapatnam
After reading all the comments given by all of you, I dont understand why all are pointing me? I have just asked is there any process of getting authorized DOB from the employee who was not submitted at the time of joining or in the service period. I dont feel that I am harassing employee or playing tricks on him. As a mandatory we the HR people has to collect required documents at the time of joining or in the service period. I have joined in this establishment recently and checked all the personal files of the employees, in that i have found this case. Inorder to stream line the gaps which i have found while checking. I have asked you all for suggestion and I feel that necessary documents are to be incorporated in personal file. Now i am asking missing file.
In our organization the retirement age is 60 years . As per his DOB his present age is 50 years , still the company has to bear him for another 10 years without proper documents. Somebody has done mistake without collecting proper documents , shall I has to continue the same wrong? so I am asking the authorized document.
I have done the following thing , whether I have done wrong or right kindly suggest me
1. I have issued him formal letter requesting him to submit DOB certificate within 3 days.
2. If he dont submit the letter , I will write letter to Medical Board requesting to examine one of the employee and confirm the DOB through medical test by keeping copy to concern employee.
I am not criticizing your comments , thankyou for all of you for sharing your views.
Regards
Venkat Ramana.B
From India, Visakhapatnam
Dear Bv.Smartchem,
Good initiative by you in streamlining the documentation.BTW What are the documents acceptable by your comapny as authorised document ? Have you mentioned it in the letter issued to that illiterate person ? otherwise he will be running around at wrong place looking for wrong document
If your aim is proper documentation,the most easiest way will be to just ask for an affadavit from the concerned employee regarding his DOB and keep it in his personal file. The expenditure on Medical board and experts are all wasteful.
As per the existing legal position, you cannot compel any one born before 1978(?) or 1979 (?) to produce a birth certificate . You have to either accept the verbal submission or can ask for an affidavit . The affidavit is nothing but again a verbal submission before a designated authority and documented . The DOB as in matric cetificate / board certificate is again a verbal submission before a designated authority (here principal of a high school) and documented.
The most amusing part is , as an employer , you can issue an authorised certificate regarding his DOB based upon your records, which will be acceptable to all authorities.
carry on your good initative.
Premendra Pranay
From India, Mumbai
Good initiative by you in streamlining the documentation.BTW What are the documents acceptable by your comapny as authorised document ? Have you mentioned it in the letter issued to that illiterate person ? otherwise he will be running around at wrong place looking for wrong document
If your aim is proper documentation,the most easiest way will be to just ask for an affadavit from the concerned employee regarding his DOB and keep it in his personal file. The expenditure on Medical board and experts are all wasteful.
As per the existing legal position, you cannot compel any one born before 1978(?) or 1979 (?) to produce a birth certificate . You have to either accept the verbal submission or can ask for an affidavit . The affidavit is nothing but again a verbal submission before a designated authority and documented . The DOB as in matric cetificate / board certificate is again a verbal submission before a designated authority (here principal of a high school) and documented.
The most amusing part is , as an employer , you can issue an authorised certificate regarding his DOB based upon your records, which will be acceptable to all authorities.
carry on your good initative.
Premendra Pranay
From India, Mumbai
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