Dear seniors , in my factory has union launch v. S. S scheme. But some employees has been working from 20 years. But now factory found that dome people working with fake academic certificate.
. It is a manufacturing unit in haryana.
. Company told employees that we r making losses in this plant.
. We r going to move Chennai.
Please suggest me from the company point of view& also from employees point of view .
Thanks
. It is a manufacturing unit in haryana.
. Company told employees that we r making losses in this plant.
. We r going to move Chennai.
Please suggest me from the company point of view& also from employees point of view .
Thanks
Dear Babhubal,
Falsification of documents at the time if joining is misconduct and employess who have done this are liable for disciplinary action. However, why your failed to detect falsification? It only goes on to show that your company did not have recruitment process.
Secondly, why for the 20 long years no audit was done? Why the irregularity was detected when your plant was not doing well and you wanted to move out?
Notwithstanding misconduct, those few workers have contributed growth of your company. Considering their contribution for the last two decades, I recommend you condoning their misconduct.
Nevertheless, you may conduct the domestic enquiry. Let their misconduct be established. As a punitive measure, you may remove them from their job. However, while removing them, pay them salary as per their notice period. You may pay them gratuity as well.
Who selected these employees? Is he still working in your company? If yes, then poetic justice demands action against all the persons involved in the recruitment that time.
Thanks,
Dinesh Divekar
From India, Bangalore
7736Falsification of documents at the time if joining is misconduct and employess who have done this are liable for disciplinary action. However, why your failed to detect falsification? It only goes on to show that your company did not have recruitment process.
Secondly, why for the 20 long years no audit was done? Why the irregularity was detected when your plant was not doing well and you wanted to move out?
Notwithstanding misconduct, those few workers have contributed growth of your company. Considering their contribution for the last two decades, I recommend you condoning their misconduct.
Nevertheless, you may conduct the domestic enquiry. Let their misconduct be established. As a punitive measure, you may remove them from their job. However, while removing them, pay them salary as per their notice period. You may pay them gratuity as well.
Who selected these employees? Is he still working in your company? If yes, then poetic justice demands action against all the persons involved in the recruitment that time.
Thanks,
Dinesh Divekar
From India, Bangalore
Dear Bahubal,
Your question ""please suggest me from the company point of view& also from employees point of view" is quite vague!
You have started discussion with reference to vss, but has not linked appropriately with the real problem, if any exists, either with the employer or with the employees with fake academic certificates. Moreover, you have asked to suggest on two conflicting angles, from the comany point of view and also from the employee point of view, when the company remained sleeping all these 20 years and all of a sudden awakened to know that some employees continued to work for all the 20 years. Moreover, it is not clear IN WHAT CAPACITY, as employer or as an employee, FOR WHAT PURPOSE, for taking action against them or to allow them to avail vss. You have also not mentioned what type of investigation was conducted and on the basis of that what action the company has taken or proposed againt such employees having been employed with fake academic certificates.
In fact, your question seems to be of mere academic interest with no real problem with the management or the employees.
Can you make clear on all these points, if you really have any issue or problem and in what of your own capacity in your company/ factory?
From India, Delhi
Your question ""please suggest me from the company point of view& also from employees point of view" is quite vague!
You have started discussion with reference to vss, but has not linked appropriately with the real problem, if any exists, either with the employer or with the employees with fake academic certificates. Moreover, you have asked to suggest on two conflicting angles, from the comany point of view and also from the employee point of view, when the company remained sleeping all these 20 years and all of a sudden awakened to know that some employees continued to work for all the 20 years. Moreover, it is not clear IN WHAT CAPACITY, as employer or as an employee, FOR WHAT PURPOSE, for taking action against them or to allow them to avail vss. You have also not mentioned what type of investigation was conducted and on the basis of that what action the company has taken or proposed againt such employees having been employed with fake academic certificates.
In fact, your question seems to be of mere academic interest with no real problem with the management or the employees.
Can you make clear on all these points, if you really have any issue or problem and in what of your own capacity in your company/ factory?
From India, Delhi
Dear Bahubal
Both the seniors Mr. Divekar and Mr. Dhingra have already given you very good insight and solution to your problem.
Hope you would not mind, if I digress from hard-core HR lexicon, with reference to your problem, and talk about some other kind of long-term relationships that might shed some light on this??
During a discourse a lady asked the new-age Guru about some marital problem, and while answering the query the Guru recounted this :
" In divorce proceedings, in the West and developed countries, whenever the Court asks the couple, when did the problem in your marriage start ?"
The wife would say, "We had problems right from the very beginning. He was ALWAYS like that."
When the same question would be put to the husband, the reply would invariably be the same !!
This happens not in one case. but in almost every case, that the affected couple would say that their problem existed from the very beginning.
In many cases, the mariiages are decades or more long. Even when the couples are more than seventy-eighty years old; they would give the same reply.
So a wise judge once remarked, that if they had such serious problems from the beginning why did they wait for decades till almost the end of their life !!
Your company and employees case seems to be similar.
As long as the company was doing well, you had no problem with the employees, their educational qualifications and certifications.
Now, your company is having other plans and you wish to shift to Chennai; so you have started digging-up and finding more than 20 years old problems !!
Hope the above anecdote gives you a proper perspective and helps solve your dilemma.
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
Both the seniors Mr. Divekar and Mr. Dhingra have already given you very good insight and solution to your problem.
Hope you would not mind, if I digress from hard-core HR lexicon, with reference to your problem, and talk about some other kind of long-term relationships that might shed some light on this??
During a discourse a lady asked the new-age Guru about some marital problem, and while answering the query the Guru recounted this :
" In divorce proceedings, in the West and developed countries, whenever the Court asks the couple, when did the problem in your marriage start ?"
The wife would say, "We had problems right from the very beginning. He was ALWAYS like that."
When the same question would be put to the husband, the reply would invariably be the same !!
This happens not in one case. but in almost every case, that the affected couple would say that their problem existed from the very beginning.
In many cases, the mariiages are decades or more long. Even when the couples are more than seventy-eighty years old; they would give the same reply.
So a wise judge once remarked, that if they had such serious problems from the beginning why did they wait for decades till almost the end of their life !!
Your company and employees case seems to be similar.
As long as the company was doing well, you had no problem with the employees, their educational qualifications and certifications.
Now, your company is having other plans and you wish to shift to Chennai; so you have started digging-up and finding more than 20 years old problems !!
Hope the above anecdote gives you a proper perspective and helps solve your dilemma.
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
Dear Bahu Bal
It's my submission that
1) Since the workers are performing the job since long time , they all are semi skilled in their function & nature, Its your fault that you have not inquired & checked the credentials in beginning. Its Ur weak point in Legal Proceeding ----- Assessing the Financial Impact / Liability
2) They have served for 20 years , try to get resolve in amicable way and settle the matter, Since you have to shift the company business , may only few can go with you.
3) As stated by you , company in loss and well aware to your old workers also , Try to get settlement in easy way either by Hook OR Crook. Other wise be prepare for legal proceeding , which definitely will be GHATE KA SAUDA.
From India
It's my submission that
1) Since the workers are performing the job since long time , they all are semi skilled in their function & nature, Its your fault that you have not inquired & checked the credentials in beginning. Its Ur weak point in Legal Proceeding ----- Assessing the Financial Impact / Liability
2) They have served for 20 years , try to get resolve in amicable way and settle the matter, Since you have to shift the company business , may only few can go with you.
3) As stated by you , company in loss and well aware to your old workers also , Try to get settlement in easy way either by Hook OR Crook. Other wise be prepare for legal proceeding , which definitely will be GHATE KA SAUDA.
From India
Respected all, I gratitude for your valuable opinions. I think issues clearly could not expressed.
1. Company wants that all permanent employees accept scheme offered as V. S. S. So that some legal hitch and easy to move Chennai.
2. Employees(union) not satisfied with the offer and refused.
3. Employees don't quit to job.
4.company finding loosepol , manager susurrant with employees that company will take inquiry /action against those have not original and on the job with other's certificate.
That's why I wanted to know in favour of employees, what can be better way for them.
Please give ur valuable concrete opinions. .
Obliged
Bahubal.
1. Company wants that all permanent employees accept scheme offered as V. S. S. So that some legal hitch and easy to move Chennai.
2. Employees(union) not satisfied with the offer and refused.
3. Employees don't quit to job.
4.company finding loosepol , manager susurrant with employees that company will take inquiry /action against those have not original and on the job with other's certificate.
That's why I wanted to know in favour of employees, what can be better way for them.
Please give ur valuable concrete opinions. .
Obliged
Bahubal.
Dear Bahubal,
Still after your clarification, the point is not clear on your query from the point of view of bot the employer as well as the employee, when you have asked, "Please suggest me from the company point of view & also from employees point of view."
Further you have not clarified, in which capacity of yours in the company, you have asked the query. The solution cvannot be the same for the point of view of the management and the employees.
So, not only you, but also the members, intending to give their views, must be very clear about what you want to know and for what purpose.
From India, Delhi
Still after your clarification, the point is not clear on your query from the point of view of bot the employer as well as the employee, when you have asked, "Please suggest me from the company point of view & also from employees point of view."
Further you have not clarified, in which capacity of yours in the company, you have asked the query. The solution cvannot be the same for the point of view of the management and the employees.
So, not only you, but also the members, intending to give their views, must be very clear about what you want to know and for what purpose.
From India, Delhi
""As long as the company was doing well, you had no problem with the employees, their educational qualifications and certifications.
Now, your company is having other plans and you wish to shift to Chennai; so you have started digging-up and finding more than 20 years old problems !!""
The nail has been hit on the head squarely.
Labour welfare laws are in existence precisely to protect workers from such belated discovery of fake documents.(off course I never condone fake documents,but during initial checks 20 years ago it should been weeded out.
Company's action is clouded by different motives.
From India, Pune
Now, your company is having other plans and you wish to shift to Chennai; so you have started digging-up and finding more than 20 years old problems !!""
The nail has been hit on the head squarely.
Labour welfare laws are in existence precisely to protect workers from such belated discovery of fake documents.(off course I never condone fake documents,but during initial checks 20 years ago it should been weeded out.
Company's action is clouded by different motives.
From India, Pune
Dear Bahubal,
I concur with the views of all our learned members - particularly that of P.S.Dhingra doubting the very thread as a mere academic exercise to obtain probably right answers and that of Rajkumar linking the same to the belated reason cited for the divorce of a long-lived marriage as a ploy to shed off the sirplus labour on some pretext or other. If I remember correct there is a judgment of the hon'ble High Court of Madhya Pradesh in the mid-80's that the order terminating an employee after due trial on the charge of having obtained the appointment on the basis of fake certificate is not an order of dismissal but a declaration that the incumbent was never appointed. However, the timing of the decision to initiate action after a lapse of 20 years that too when the management is bent upon the successful implementation of a scheme of voluntary retirement to facilitate the smooth transfer of the undertaking elsewhere . Therefore, it would be better to persuade the union to accept the proposal by offering more compensation.
From India, Salem
I concur with the views of all our learned members - particularly that of P.S.Dhingra doubting the very thread as a mere academic exercise to obtain probably right answers and that of Rajkumar linking the same to the belated reason cited for the divorce of a long-lived marriage as a ploy to shed off the sirplus labour on some pretext or other. If I remember correct there is a judgment of the hon'ble High Court of Madhya Pradesh in the mid-80's that the order terminating an employee after due trial on the charge of having obtained the appointment on the basis of fake certificate is not an order of dismissal but a declaration that the incumbent was never appointed. However, the timing of the decision to initiate action after a lapse of 20 years that too when the management is bent upon the successful implementation of a scheme of voluntary retirement to facilitate the smooth transfer of the undertaking elsewhere . Therefore, it would be better to persuade the union to accept the proposal by offering more compensation.
From India, Salem
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